A. The publication is their property, and they can specify whatever they want, which I'm sure you already know, but I just had to get that out there for the nimrods who don't.
B. WTF!!! Actually, this was one of the reasons I stopped submitting to lit mags and anthologies. I started seeing these wokist restrictions that have NOTHING to do with our writing ability.
Several good points, Kathrine. I am reminded of a something Robert Louis Stevenson once said, “The important tale is the tale, the well-told tale, not he who tells it.” Over-emphasis on physical and cultural characteristics for writers kind of ruins the idea that what we all have in common is our basic humanity and instead creates a divisive barrier that presumes to assert we cannot possibly understand and relate to each other because our differences define us.
WOW - what a huge and really interesting question!
I would have to say yes, a writer's voice is coloured through their experiences in life. But no we can't tell what someone looks like through their writing.
I would personally prefer to judge an author on their talent and intelligence instead of something so banal as their skin colour or sexual preference.
But... it's not that simple.
Do I believe in WOKE'ism ? - No and Yes!
For me, the key is balance, not leaning towards any form of extremism.
When any act or belief, no matter how noble its initial intentions, veers into extremism, the balance is lost, and the attack is woken.
The right to question should not be mistaken for attack. Thank you for your question, Kathrine. I have found it to be really interesting and thought-provoking. As a society we MUST question all the time!
So before I begin, I want to clearly state to any other readers- that questioning is the only way forward and nothing is achieved by attacking a person who questions; no thought is engaged with whilst attacking, and no positive change is born through an attack. Under attack, all good intentions wither and die. The minute anyone goes on the attack, their opinions their ideas, no matter how true or correct, become invalid; the opportunity to invoke thought is lost and the right to question is quelled into silence. The minute we lose the right to question - a society becomes a very dangerous place.
It's crucial to remember that when we encounter differing opinions, it's not about attacking or defending. It's about engaging in a respectful, open-minded discussion. Our lives, our opinions, and our perceptions are all shaped by our unique life experiences, and these all colour our writer's voice. When a brave individual questions, we may feel we have to defend, but above that we should also feel we have to THINK!
So... in regard to WOKE behaviour and its effect on writing submissions. I believe in balance. Our society, our humanity, the tapestry of our rich culture, is only made so beautiful by the existence and inclusion of every single diverse thread.
Does it annoy me that there are writing submissions which I am barred from.? Yes.
Do I think that those who would benefit most from having their voice heard are already economically shackled to the point they are unable to participate? Yes!
(I know I can't afford to pay a lot of entrance/submission fees and so therefore don't bother but instead feel like I and my fellow writers are simply being fleeced! But hey... I'm able to afford a computer and the internet!)
Are some of these submission requirements, in some ways, the economically rich attempting to make themselves feel better? Are they garnishing attention by jumping on the WOKE bandwagon? You bet!
Do I have gay and lesbian friends who would rock it in if they submitted their work to some of these competitions, and do I wish with all my heart they would win? Yep!
Am I happy they have these opportunities - Yep!
Do I understand why a close lesbian friend who was raped, simply because she was her true self in public, would never submit anything? Yes, her experiences have coloured her life in a way I couldn't and hopefully never have to understand. Do I want those people who are like her to have an opportunity to be heard and have the economic means of doing so? Yep!
As a woman, have I encountered discriminating sexism, had my basic human rights over my own body ignored, and been treated as less than an equal straight to my face? - Please, that's just a given!
Is that acceptable - well... the last time some guy pinched me on the backside as he was walking past me as I was herding my young children to the shop's counter to buy their icecreams found out by me giving him an absolute mouthful - no, it's not! But I felt safe in laughing at him, mocking him and telling him to keep his bloody hands to himself. I felt safe because my husband was in the car outside; I'm white, I'm middle class, and I was surrounded by other white people, and I felt safe with the idea that if the police came, I would be safe. I'm not locked up in my home compound; I can exist in my society freely, and I will not be stoned to death if I'm raped or forced to marry my rapist to save the twisted ego of my male family members.
Am I still, to this day, ignored by certain men in certain roles if my husband is standing right next to me? Yes! Is that lessening? Sometimes.
Has my husband, a white male, ever been discriminated against? - Of course.
A number of years ago, he lost his job a week before Christmas, throwing us into financial turmoil. He stacked shelves at night when I went back to work during the day so he could look after our kids. And when our youngest went to school, he worked on the offal floor of the local abattoir. He was mocked by his family and friends, and it went on for four years until he was able to claw himself back into a position that society and his family deemed acceptable for him to be in. How dare he go to Mother's group. How dare he be the stay-at-home parent. Wasn't he a real man?
If you're alive - you have the undeniable chance of being discriminated against.
Do I have friends and their children who have faced unmitigated, undiluted racism? Very, very sadly yes!
Have I struggled to understand that racism exists in my country? Yes!
Should minorities have a protected right to have their voices heard? Yes.
Culturally in Australia, my generation was taught to view our country through the lens of British history. We were brought up knowing that anything Australian was second-class. That if something was made in Britain it was far superior than anything made in Australia or in Japan. And specifically, there was no racism in our country.... and no questioning of this occurred because this was an undeniable truth.
It is NOW an undeniable truth that all those beliefs no longer exist within Australian culture!
It no longer exists because people were and are brave enough to stand out and have their voices heard, whether the opportunity exists for them to do so or not.
But we learn nothing, and nothing is changed for the better if questioning voices are not given room to breathe.
A couple of years ago, a very positive and amazing group of Elders took the teachers from my school around the local town (where I used to work) and showed us where the Noongar people got water, ocher and other pigments, telling us all these amazing stories or survival in ingenuity.
Then they took us and showed us a small transportable tin shed, which had been used for the last 30 years to store one farmer's horse riding tack. The farmer was uncomfortable about it but thought it important for us 'educators' to see.
We were then taken to the outskirts of the local rubbish tip and shown a concrete block on the ground. That's where the tin shed had been originally situated and, along with others just like it, had housed a family of 14 with no electricity, running water or heat. The kids had to walk 5 km into town because there was no bus service. And then half the time, they were told off when they got to school because they weren't clean, had no lunch or shoes or fell asleep in class.
This now explained to me the race divisions in that town. An issue I had struggled to understand before.
How could local Noongar people not be angry?
How could there not be generational hate within the local Noongar community when they had been gathered up and forced to live at the local tip?
So, the kind act the Elders made in choosing to educate us without blame or anger, just supplying the undeniable facts, was extremely powerful for all of us and has stuck with me, changing the colour of my world forever.
Do I want these amazing people to have a supported opportunity for their voices to be heard?
Yes!
Will it be? ....hmm hopefully if they remain strong enough.
Do people take advantage of differences to get themselves ahead or differentiate themselves from the herd? Yep.
Is that fair?
Honestly... we all do it!
But, when any idea, opinion, act or belief - regardless of its good intentions or need to exist is taken to the extreme. When the balance of common sense, fair play and support of those who truly need it goes out the window, and people who don't need the help abuse the system, making the attempt to help those in need become a public negative. Then no, it's not fair.
Balanced WOKE behaviour has a purpose and a very positive one at that. It could and is changing our world culture for the better. But, the moment it or anything else becomes unbalanced, nothing but the opposite is achieved.
I think the solution is to demand and expect balance and to always guard the right to question so that balance is maintained and all people have a voice.
I think it's important to categorise submissions so that quiet voices are heard, but it's wrong to award someone on that alone and not base recognition of talent and ability.
Mine is not a clear-cut answer, but when is life ever clear-cut?
Thank you, Kathrine, for your really interesting question.
Thank you, V! Now that’s what I call a conversation, not barking at somebody whom you disagree with.
I mostly agree with you.
I am surprized at how bad things are in Australia, regarding sexism and racism. Growing up and living in my supposetly primitive and poor country I haven’t felt slighted or discriminated because I’m a woman. I don’t take drunks, junkies and jerks seriously. Believe me, I’ve grown up in a very bad area. But when it came to studying and career - no discrimination there. I could’ve succeeded in STEM easily, but I was lazy and chose the artistic path. Which I also had a bit of success with. Not because I was white or rich. I come from generations of poor peasants.
Speaking of. Not only did people of colour have it hard in the past. People of my country were white slaves - yes, yes, I’m not afraid to say it. Poor native peasants would belong to the rich (mostly German invadors) barons just like the land or farm animals. This lasted roughly for centuries. The peasants could be sold or killed or beaten, without any consequences to their “master”. It ended somewhere in the middle of 19th century. Thid is where I come from. This is my ancestry. What white priviledge do I have?! Where?
I know there’s some racism in my country. Most of it comes from our introvent nature, and there are also some jerks who don’t like anybody who looks slightly different. Jerks are everywhere. Any reason is good enough for them to attack somebody.
Nowadays I think people who are able to submit their work for these online submissions are pretty much the same. The only merit should be the quality of our work, because if I were a jerk, I could create a fake profile on social media pretenting to be a person of colour, and lie claming to be one, and submit my work to these places. Could they tell the difference? Not based on my writing. (Of course, I would never make such a profile, I’m not that vile).
See, that’s it exactly! When there's no balance, it can push people to do the wrong thing out of frustration. And we all learn so much if we just try to put our emotions to one side and let people question!
Australia’s not bad… some towns up north can be reallllllllllly red neck! On the whole, it’s a very multicultural country and moving in the right direction. But any country that starts off with colonisation as a footing with convicts who were nothing more than poor people locked into slavery and the government not viewing the First Nations people as human has to go on a journey to find its feet. We’re getting there!
I was so interested in reading about your country’s history. So much history is not told, not highlighted, and for some nations, there is no understanding of what other countries and othe people have gone through.
I guess, it’s very hard for people to step out of their own context and to wrap their minds around what other people experience. But going on the attack is not the way!
This is truly a can of worms. I am an author (it’s my other “job”). I’ve published nearly 20 books under a pen-name but use an avatar or in the past, even a face photo on my Amazon author page. I write diverse characters. I was a TV producer for several decades and at the time, my shows were one of the few to have a diverse cast as well.
So when I went into publishing, I did the same thing. I thought I was doing something good.
Unfortunately I got some horrible (and even false) reviews because I was a white woman writing Black, Asian and LatinX main characters.
I’m female and have also published male/male romance which is fine since the readers are mainly female.
Anyway, I finally asked another friend in the industry who is Black, and she explained it to me. And after she did, I understood what she was saying completely. She explained that I was taking a seat at the table, when there weren’t enough seats. She told me I am more than welcome to write secondary diverse characters, but I cannot write diverse main characters. She also explained that publishers looking for specific voices is a good thing because for far too long, her voice (and all other BIPOC voices) were barred.
Does a voice have color? In novel writing, in my experience, yes. I had to have sensitivity readers from the backgrounds I wrote read my work and “fix” it.
So whether I want to believe it or not, I have to defer to (and honor) the people in those communities.
I remember at one romance writers of America conference, the outrage I felt when a non-Jewish writer (I’m Jewish) won for writing a love story between a Nazi and his Jewish prisoner.
Sometimes I just have to put myself in another person’s shoes to understand.
While I appreciate and understand what you’re saying, there’s no simple answer.
She is a close friend and colleague and I value her opinion but I’m not explaining it as eloquently as she did. It doesn’t have to do with the quality of the writing. I’ve seen horrible (and I do mean horrible) romance writers shoot to #1 for whatever reason. She is saying that I was taking the seat of a marginalized person who has fought forever to even be at the table. And since I’m not BIPOC, I choose to take her word for it because she lives it every day. That’s all. As a queer woman, do I believe a heteronormative person can’t write from a queer perspective? No, and I say that as part of that community. But I’m not part of the BIPOC community so I listen to those who are, especially someone I trust and respect. But I’m also not telling others what to do, just what’s right for me and why.
No, I don’t think I truly can. Without living an entire life as a person of color, I will never know and can never truly “embody” what that person has experienced. People of color are treated differently, and most have completely different cultures. All of this makes a person who they are. I can only write from a place of imagination (and research), which doesn’t do a multi-faceted character justice.
Oh, just for referrence, I wrote a short story from a 50-year-old guys POV. The middle aged guys here on the Stack said it was good, so believable. Imagination and research. I know you won’t read it, but just in case:
You just annihilated the entire army of fantasy writers. Just kidding. A stupid excample - how can I write about riding a dragon, how it feels, if I haven’t ridden one?! Okay, let’s talk realistic plots. It means a woman can’t write truly believable stories from a male character’s perspective, because she hadn’t had the experience of being a male her whole life? Or vice versa. (Oooh, this might just get political and very ugly!) if we apply this to real life - how can anybody know how someone else feels, if they hadn’t lived in his body. Um… how can a biological male claim he feels like a woman, if he hasn’t lived in a biological woman’s body, not for a day?! Okay, forget my last remark. This is the dirtiest ideological battle ground these days. If you’re about to call me a terf or something, please, just don’t. Ignore me and I’ll go away.😅
Hi. I’m running your question by some of my BIPOC friends. I’m happy to share their response if you’re interested. I asked a Portuguese woman today, because I live in Portugal, and she did not believe that someone could write a realistic portrayal of a Portuguese woman if they are not Portuguese. I’m not saying people don’t do it, and I’m not saying that some people don’t do it in a passable way, I’m saying that I do believe voice has color, and that was your initial question.
Does voice have sexual identity as well is another question. I have written many male characters and even an entire novel from a male’s point of view, but honestly, I think it’s lacking. When I read books written by females from a male’s point of view, I can usually tell and visa versa. I have a very good male friend, who writes female erotica, and I have to fix quite a few missing (and incorrect) items, shall we say. 😅
Well, ask writer friends! I think the best writers in the world can pull this off. And asking friends to read for credibility is research. I mean, with a proper research I still believe it’s doable. If you’re a better writer than a BIPOC writer, your talent and imagination can compensate for the lack of experience. Good writing may surpass badly written authenticity. That’s what artists/writers do. We’re not chroniclers.
Or maybe don’t bother. I mean, don’t waste your time on this, because I’m just some feisty chick on the internet - totally not worth your time.
Kathrine, honestly, you have the BEST rants! Who was it that said something like "I don't discriminate, I hate everyone" ??? Actually, Kathrine, you are speaking to an ex-hippie, a real-live one in my mid teens to very early 20's. Then I was a "hipster" as I got a bit older...but same difference. Those descriptions sound just like the San Francisco Bay Guardian newspaper used to sound, with a mile-long list of woke requirements. I lived in SF for 31 years and was in the middle of much of this. How the heck to keep up with all the demands, exhausting. Also same on Craig's List ads for household worker needs and etc. Over the top is putting it mildly. Only solution for us rugged individualists is to just...write...your...raw...and...ragged...heart...and...soul...and...let...the...chips...fall...where...they...may. WEW
It’s brutal.🫣 Just kidding. The comments are interesting, some more emotional and radical than the others. But, I suppose the readers perception might depend on which side of the political spectrum they’re on.
Everyone's voice is authentic. To limit people's rights to write and read what they want is what my father would call social fascism. One thing I try to write authentically about is what it feels like to be autistic. It's also important to me to read other authentic autistic writers. We aren't a repressed minority, we just have to write well and get our voices heard. If non autists want to write about how annoying autistic people can be, yes, give me more. Don't limit people's voices.
I agree with you here, Kathrine. While I do utilize such chances like free submissions for POC writers, I need to swallow my pride myself to do that. It feels so humbling and patronizing. I am still willing to exploit my race just to raise the chance of getting published, but I wish I did not have to.
And that's why so many people are claiming victimization. Everyone now has autism, mental health issues, gender, and sexuality variabilities. Transracial is about the only thing you can't get away with yet by mere declaration.
Dismissing the importance of #ownvoices in literature and hiding under the guise of false equality that thinly veils someone’s own insecurities and frustrations doesn’t really bring the shock value I was supposed to get from this post. It just dismisses complex cultural and social problems.
I’m sorry Kathrine, but as someone whose entire life has also been deeply rooted in Soviet and post-Soviet poverty and culture, I find this whole thing quite tone deaf. I understand it doesn’t come from a place of malice, but there are more effective ways of venting frustration.
Writer's voice, of course, has no color, but I don't see this point made clearly in your article. There is a difference between the straw man argument of "why cannot xyz group write about abc experience" and actual calls for the aforementioned #ownvoices writing.
To use a simple analogy that probably bridges the gap between the two of us in the simplest way - Let's say there is a call for stories written by mothers. You, as a mom, would be welcome to submit your work. It doesn't prevent me from writing characters who are moms or discussing the topic of labor complications. My voice just wouldn't be needed for that particular call.
There are many individual experiences, but they don't discard a collective experience of a marginalized group. Sometimes the calls don't necessarily have to include a specific subject matter, but, again, I find it hard to view them as "trying to take my spot" in some perceived exclusive space. I don't want you to think I'm trying to silence you or attack your opinions, I think we just have a fundamentally different view of publishing when it comes to the duality of general publishing and the #ownvoices movement.
I’m a simple soul. I like to put things simple. The bottom line is that you agree with me about the writer’s voice having no colour. Period. Or maybe a comma?
I believe in the equality when it comes to artistic endeavours and craft. Don’t you? If a childless writer has the capacity, the knowledge and the imagination to write about a mother’s experience better than me, a mother, - I would bow to their talent and craft, and not object to them being published instead of me.
I believe in equality of voices. You believe in external qualities unconnected to talent and craft as an advantage or the obstacle for people to succeed. I believe in all voices, you believe in #ownvoices. Man, I’m more liberal than you are!😂 Woke is not a good mindset, my friend. Very limiting. It puts you in a box, which I believe many don’t have the courage to get out of.
Kathrine, judging from your reactions (or lack of thereof) to comments from Leanna, Romana and me, I think we hit a soft spot. There is a clear disconnect between what I wrote and what you perceived, whether it's because I wasn't 'simple' enough or because there is some critical reading interference.
Leanna put everything into words with far more grace and kindness than I am capable of, and I don't think me trying to continue this discussion any further will lead to you actually examining the points I was making. Your crops shall remain safe this year, with the number of straw men you've built in this endeavor.
I didn’t even see Leanne’s comment until you mentioned it just now - Substack didn’t notify me. It happens. See? You presumed I didn’t answer it.
Yep, no point in dragging this on. We speak different languages. As for Romana and Leanne, indoctrination is heavy there. I don’t see how a discussion is possible, if the person uses terms like “white cis woman” with a straight face.
You say you don't want to spread hate but that's exactly what you're doing. And why? Because some journal, magazine or publishing house rejected you? Have you ever considered that they might have actual reasons to do so and not your skin?
Besides, this sounds as if it was written by very privileged straight white cis woman and I'm glad that partially you already understand this. So, perhaps, now would be the time to delve deeper into why you sound like this. Don't just victimize yourself, be critical and assess yourself the way you assess these publishers, writers, editors, etc.
Briefly, don't try to put blame on others. Look at yourself and your writing.
Or don't, whatever. But then don't expect the world to care about you or your writing, when *you* only think about *yourself*.
I wouldn’t even dare to apply my work to a place with these guidelines. I’m not a liar. But can you, please, answer my question - does a writer’s VOICE have colour? Is my writer’s voice different from the voice of a person of different colour, becausr of the colour?
I don’t think you will answer me. You’ve probably blocked me already.
Judging by your choice of words you live in a bubble, Romana. I hope one day, you’ll open your eyes.
But anyway, this has nothing to do with color. These guidelines are there because of the access such people have to different options. You obviously don't see this because you already have your white privilege and nothing was taken away from you that could be even called "human rights". Also the right to have a voice, specifically.
So... no, the voice technically doesn't have a color. But your skin color, gender, sexuality, etc. affect the way people view and assess your writing. If you were POC or queer, people would treat you and your writing differently. Metaphorically then, the voice has "color".
If this doesn't answer your ignorant and hateful question, then I don't know what will.
You have a very shallow and arrogant way, I dare say, stereopypicall way of viewing people. What privilege do I have?! What do you know about me? You judge me by my skin colour. Tell me how is that not superficial? How is that not racist? I might have suffered hunger and violence in my childhood, while a rich asian kid may have had a lovely childhood. Who is the priviledged one here?
Hello Kathrine love, I am weighing in. Romana did pretty well. I recommend looking into privileges as a white cis het woman (I am assuming you’re also that) and I’m giving you a book to read by a white woman about her growing awareness of that “privilege”. It’s called “Waking Up White” by Debby Irving. It’s a memoir and it’s a really good read.
Next I want you to consider that the great monolith of publishing is run by (mostly) white men who have that white male viewpoint … (the exception is the many female editors in the romance industry) and if there’s any indication you’re not going to fit that (whether because your name doesn’t sound white or the topic/themes of your work), you are likely to be passed over for someone who “fits”. Why do you think Rowling used initials? (Same problem as the Brontes). So many SFF writers had to pretend to be male in order to write in this field. That has changed in recent decades.
These specialized publications allow those voices to be heard, to be less alone in their shared experiences and stories. For the same reason you gather up romance stories, they gather up stories to support each other and bring visibility to their beautiful work. That is not a bad thing.
So, you might call me a racist and I am. I’ve got generations of taught racism in me (stuff that feels “normal”) that I’m doing my best to deny and sometimes I slip up. This post is one of your slip ups, Kathrine. You should apply to that Luna publication as that’s for women writers only. There are plenty of publications you can submit to.
A quick question - what makes you think I’m a woman? Or white? The picture on my profile? Everything I said about myself could be a hoax to hide my identity.
Oh, and this is not a slip up. These are my thoughts and observations. By the way, I have posted something similar on Notes some months ago. I believe after a short discussion you agreed that the quality of the writer’s work should be the only merit. Did you pretend to agree with me back then? I’m sad to see you’ve been so heavily indoctrinated by a certain ideology. I hope one day you’ll be truly awaken and not woke.
Don’t answer if you don’t want to. I know you hate me already. (No need to pretend).
By the way Thorny Thursday isn’t a closed group. It’s opened to everybody, even folks who don’t write romance. I try to keep it neutral from any ideologies. From my own opinion and beliefs as well. The only merit is if it doesn’t violate Substack rules. But I’ll understand if you want off the list, if you can’t separate the TT from my persona.🤷♀️
Did you just admit you aren’t who you say you are?
As for being indoctrinated, that response to your earlier Note was me taking the question at face value. It’d be great if writers could be seen in their own writerly merit but so many are not and I remember writing about that then. How about instead of telling me not to be woke you give me some resources, like I gave you so you could read and make up your own mind? Oh, and I don’t hate you. You haven’t crossed that line.
As for the TT list, my serial finishes some time in July and then I’m on hiatus until book 2 is ready so I will be a bit quiet around all the lists after that.
Of course the whole business is a powder-white condescension to those whom our elites consider lesser people.
🙄
I worked in factories from 1980 to 2011. I met and worked and lived and worshipped beside maybe a dozen persons of color with genuine street cred, escapees from hood life. Every one, every single one of them found Affirmative Action to be a horribly patronizing racist put down aimed at keeping black people in their place and at giving substance to prejudicial white sneers. The profiteers pushing racial preferences can take it up with the real people from the ugly side; not my place to argue on their behalf. I’m just relating my experience.
My attitude toward gay people did a 180 degree turnaround between high school and retirement. Why? Because some brave souls came out and made it normal. Remember Act Up? They were gays who shouted in the streets and wore thongs into churches they didn’t like, and so on. They set the cause of gay rights back 20 years. What changed my mind was seeing gays as normal people living normal lives.
Hope that’s clear.
To all genders, creeds, orientations, and heritages: Brotherhood is your one and only hope. Buying into the division game is an act of fellatio performed on your predators. The brotherhood of all is your only hope. It doesn’t matter how stupid whitey is: grow tfu and out-human the sons a beeches.
Kathrine, Of Course one’s experience colors one’s writing! Yes, your color has a voice! Be authentic, write about what you know. What on earth do they even teach in the damn schools these days?
A. The publication is their property, and they can specify whatever they want, which I'm sure you already know, but I just had to get that out there for the nimrods who don't.
B. WTF!!! Actually, this was one of the reasons I stopped submitting to lit mags and anthologies. I started seeing these wokist restrictions that have NOTHING to do with our writing ability.
C. I need some chocolate now to calm down.
Have a great evening.
Several good points, Kathrine. I am reminded of a something Robert Louis Stevenson once said, “The important tale is the tale, the well-told tale, not he who tells it.” Over-emphasis on physical and cultural characteristics for writers kind of ruins the idea that what we all have in common is our basic humanity and instead creates a divisive barrier that presumes to assert we cannot possibly understand and relate to each other because our differences define us.
Opps slight misquote from memory “the important thing is the tale” not the important tale is the tale! 😬🙄
WOW - what a huge and really interesting question!
I would have to say yes, a writer's voice is coloured through their experiences in life. But no we can't tell what someone looks like through their writing.
I would personally prefer to judge an author on their talent and intelligence instead of something so banal as their skin colour or sexual preference.
But... it's not that simple.
Do I believe in WOKE'ism ? - No and Yes!
For me, the key is balance, not leaning towards any form of extremism.
When any act or belief, no matter how noble its initial intentions, veers into extremism, the balance is lost, and the attack is woken.
The right to question should not be mistaken for attack. Thank you for your question, Kathrine. I have found it to be really interesting and thought-provoking. As a society we MUST question all the time!
So before I begin, I want to clearly state to any other readers- that questioning is the only way forward and nothing is achieved by attacking a person who questions; no thought is engaged with whilst attacking, and no positive change is born through an attack. Under attack, all good intentions wither and die. The minute anyone goes on the attack, their opinions their ideas, no matter how true or correct, become invalid; the opportunity to invoke thought is lost and the right to question is quelled into silence. The minute we lose the right to question - a society becomes a very dangerous place.
It's crucial to remember that when we encounter differing opinions, it's not about attacking or defending. It's about engaging in a respectful, open-minded discussion. Our lives, our opinions, and our perceptions are all shaped by our unique life experiences, and these all colour our writer's voice. When a brave individual questions, we may feel we have to defend, but above that we should also feel we have to THINK!
So... in regard to WOKE behaviour and its effect on writing submissions. I believe in balance. Our society, our humanity, the tapestry of our rich culture, is only made so beautiful by the existence and inclusion of every single diverse thread.
Does it annoy me that there are writing submissions which I am barred from.? Yes.
Do I think that those who would benefit most from having their voice heard are already economically shackled to the point they are unable to participate? Yes!
(I know I can't afford to pay a lot of entrance/submission fees and so therefore don't bother but instead feel like I and my fellow writers are simply being fleeced! But hey... I'm able to afford a computer and the internet!)
Are some of these submission requirements, in some ways, the economically rich attempting to make themselves feel better? Are they garnishing attention by jumping on the WOKE bandwagon? You bet!
Do I have gay and lesbian friends who would rock it in if they submitted their work to some of these competitions, and do I wish with all my heart they would win? Yep!
Am I happy they have these opportunities - Yep!
Do I understand why a close lesbian friend who was raped, simply because she was her true self in public, would never submit anything? Yes, her experiences have coloured her life in a way I couldn't and hopefully never have to understand. Do I want those people who are like her to have an opportunity to be heard and have the economic means of doing so? Yep!
As a woman, have I encountered discriminating sexism, had my basic human rights over my own body ignored, and been treated as less than an equal straight to my face? - Please, that's just a given!
Is that acceptable - well... the last time some guy pinched me on the backside as he was walking past me as I was herding my young children to the shop's counter to buy their icecreams found out by me giving him an absolute mouthful - no, it's not! But I felt safe in laughing at him, mocking him and telling him to keep his bloody hands to himself. I felt safe because my husband was in the car outside; I'm white, I'm middle class, and I was surrounded by other white people, and I felt safe with the idea that if the police came, I would be safe. I'm not locked up in my home compound; I can exist in my society freely, and I will not be stoned to death if I'm raped or forced to marry my rapist to save the twisted ego of my male family members.
Am I still, to this day, ignored by certain men in certain roles if my husband is standing right next to me? Yes! Is that lessening? Sometimes.
Has my husband, a white male, ever been discriminated against? - Of course.
A number of years ago, he lost his job a week before Christmas, throwing us into financial turmoil. He stacked shelves at night when I went back to work during the day so he could look after our kids. And when our youngest went to school, he worked on the offal floor of the local abattoir. He was mocked by his family and friends, and it went on for four years until he was able to claw himself back into a position that society and his family deemed acceptable for him to be in. How dare he go to Mother's group. How dare he be the stay-at-home parent. Wasn't he a real man?
If you're alive - you have the undeniable chance of being discriminated against.
Do I have friends and their children who have faced unmitigated, undiluted racism? Very, very sadly yes!
Have I struggled to understand that racism exists in my country? Yes!
Should minorities have a protected right to have their voices heard? Yes.
Culturally in Australia, my generation was taught to view our country through the lens of British history. We were brought up knowing that anything Australian was second-class. That if something was made in Britain it was far superior than anything made in Australia or in Japan. And specifically, there was no racism in our country.... and no questioning of this occurred because this was an undeniable truth.
It is NOW an undeniable truth that all those beliefs no longer exist within Australian culture!
It no longer exists because people were and are brave enough to stand out and have their voices heard, whether the opportunity exists for them to do so or not.
But we learn nothing, and nothing is changed for the better if questioning voices are not given room to breathe.
A couple of years ago, a very positive and amazing group of Elders took the teachers from my school around the local town (where I used to work) and showed us where the Noongar people got water, ocher and other pigments, telling us all these amazing stories or survival in ingenuity.
Then they took us and showed us a small transportable tin shed, which had been used for the last 30 years to store one farmer's horse riding tack. The farmer was uncomfortable about it but thought it important for us 'educators' to see.
We were then taken to the outskirts of the local rubbish tip and shown a concrete block on the ground. That's where the tin shed had been originally situated and, along with others just like it, had housed a family of 14 with no electricity, running water or heat. The kids had to walk 5 km into town because there was no bus service. And then half the time, they were told off when they got to school because they weren't clean, had no lunch or shoes or fell asleep in class.
This now explained to me the race divisions in that town. An issue I had struggled to understand before.
How could local Noongar people not be angry?
How could there not be generational hate within the local Noongar community when they had been gathered up and forced to live at the local tip?
So, the kind act the Elders made in choosing to educate us without blame or anger, just supplying the undeniable facts, was extremely powerful for all of us and has stuck with me, changing the colour of my world forever.
Do I want these amazing people to have a supported opportunity for their voices to be heard?
Yes!
Will it be? ....hmm hopefully if they remain strong enough.
Do people take advantage of differences to get themselves ahead or differentiate themselves from the herd? Yep.
Is that fair?
Honestly... we all do it!
But, when any idea, opinion, act or belief - regardless of its good intentions or need to exist is taken to the extreme. When the balance of common sense, fair play and support of those who truly need it goes out the window, and people who don't need the help abuse the system, making the attempt to help those in need become a public negative. Then no, it's not fair.
Balanced WOKE behaviour has a purpose and a very positive one at that. It could and is changing our world culture for the better. But, the moment it or anything else becomes unbalanced, nothing but the opposite is achieved.
I think the solution is to demand and expect balance and to always guard the right to question so that balance is maintained and all people have a voice.
I think it's important to categorise submissions so that quiet voices are heard, but it's wrong to award someone on that alone and not base recognition of talent and ability.
Mine is not a clear-cut answer, but when is life ever clear-cut?
Thank you, Kathrine, for your really interesting question.
Thank you, V! Now that’s what I call a conversation, not barking at somebody whom you disagree with.
I mostly agree with you.
I am surprized at how bad things are in Australia, regarding sexism and racism. Growing up and living in my supposetly primitive and poor country I haven’t felt slighted or discriminated because I’m a woman. I don’t take drunks, junkies and jerks seriously. Believe me, I’ve grown up in a very bad area. But when it came to studying and career - no discrimination there. I could’ve succeeded in STEM easily, but I was lazy and chose the artistic path. Which I also had a bit of success with. Not because I was white or rich. I come from generations of poor peasants.
Speaking of. Not only did people of colour have it hard in the past. People of my country were white slaves - yes, yes, I’m not afraid to say it. Poor native peasants would belong to the rich (mostly German invadors) barons just like the land or farm animals. This lasted roughly for centuries. The peasants could be sold or killed or beaten, without any consequences to their “master”. It ended somewhere in the middle of 19th century. Thid is where I come from. This is my ancestry. What white priviledge do I have?! Where?
I know there’s some racism in my country. Most of it comes from our introvent nature, and there are also some jerks who don’t like anybody who looks slightly different. Jerks are everywhere. Any reason is good enough for them to attack somebody.
Nowadays I think people who are able to submit their work for these online submissions are pretty much the same. The only merit should be the quality of our work, because if I were a jerk, I could create a fake profile on social media pretenting to be a person of colour, and lie claming to be one, and submit my work to these places. Could they tell the difference? Not based on my writing. (Of course, I would never make such a profile, I’m not that vile).
See, that’s it exactly! When there's no balance, it can push people to do the wrong thing out of frustration. And we all learn so much if we just try to put our emotions to one side and let people question!
Australia’s not bad… some towns up north can be reallllllllllly red neck! On the whole, it’s a very multicultural country and moving in the right direction. But any country that starts off with colonisation as a footing with convicts who were nothing more than poor people locked into slavery and the government not viewing the First Nations people as human has to go on a journey to find its feet. We’re getting there!
I was so interested in reading about your country’s history. So much history is not told, not highlighted, and for some nations, there is no understanding of what other countries and othe people have gone through.
I guess, it’s very hard for people to step out of their own context and to wrap their minds around what other people experience. But going on the attack is not the way!
Thanks for making today such an interesting one!
Vanessa
This is truly a can of worms. I am an author (it’s my other “job”). I’ve published nearly 20 books under a pen-name but use an avatar or in the past, even a face photo on my Amazon author page. I write diverse characters. I was a TV producer for several decades and at the time, my shows were one of the few to have a diverse cast as well.
So when I went into publishing, I did the same thing. I thought I was doing something good.
Unfortunately I got some horrible (and even false) reviews because I was a white woman writing Black, Asian and LatinX main characters.
I’m female and have also published male/male romance which is fine since the readers are mainly female.
Anyway, I finally asked another friend in the industry who is Black, and she explained it to me. And after she did, I understood what she was saying completely. She explained that I was taking a seat at the table, when there weren’t enough seats. She told me I am more than welcome to write secondary diverse characters, but I cannot write diverse main characters. She also explained that publishers looking for specific voices is a good thing because for far too long, her voice (and all other BIPOC voices) were barred.
Does a voice have color? In novel writing, in my experience, yes. I had to have sensitivity readers from the backgrounds I wrote read my work and “fix” it.
So whether I want to believe it or not, I have to defer to (and honor) the people in those communities.
I remember at one romance writers of America conference, the outrage I felt when a non-Jewish writer (I’m Jewish) won for writing a love story between a Nazi and his Jewish prisoner.
Sometimes I just have to put myself in another person’s shoes to understand.
While I appreciate and understand what you’re saying, there’s no simple answer.
But if the one taking the ‘seat at the table’ simply wrote it better? It is possible. Shouldn’t the quality of the work be the only merit?
I think your black friend wasn’t playing fair. She or he got rid of competition in a petty way.
Oh, yeah, a can of worms for sure. Or a scared cow.
Now don’t fix that. “Scared cow” is absolutely priceless.
Ahhh! What an epic typo!!! SACRED COW!😂🫣
She is a close friend and colleague and I value her opinion but I’m not explaining it as eloquently as she did. It doesn’t have to do with the quality of the writing. I’ve seen horrible (and I do mean horrible) romance writers shoot to #1 for whatever reason. She is saying that I was taking the seat of a marginalized person who has fought forever to even be at the table. And since I’m not BIPOC, I choose to take her word for it because she lives it every day. That’s all. As a queer woman, do I believe a heteronormative person can’t write from a queer perspective? No, and I say that as part of that community. But I’m not part of the BIPOC community so I listen to those who are, especially someone I trust and respect. But I’m also not telling others what to do, just what’s right for me and why.
So, do you think that you wrote characters of colour worse than writers of colour do?
I answered with the negative when I meant to answer with the affirmative. My short answer to your last question is, yes.
No, I don’t think I truly can. Without living an entire life as a person of color, I will never know and can never truly “embody” what that person has experienced. People of color are treated differently, and most have completely different cultures. All of this makes a person who they are. I can only write from a place of imagination (and research), which doesn’t do a multi-faceted character justice.
Oh, just for referrence, I wrote a short story from a 50-year-old guys POV. The middle aged guys here on the Stack said it was good, so believable. Imagination and research. I know you won’t read it, but just in case:
https://open.substack.com/pub/kathrineelaine/p/phil-and-kat?r=2rhgsy&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
I would be happy to read it.
You just annihilated the entire army of fantasy writers. Just kidding. A stupid excample - how can I write about riding a dragon, how it feels, if I haven’t ridden one?! Okay, let’s talk realistic plots. It means a woman can’t write truly believable stories from a male character’s perspective, because she hadn’t had the experience of being a male her whole life? Or vice versa. (Oooh, this might just get political and very ugly!) if we apply this to real life - how can anybody know how someone else feels, if they hadn’t lived in his body. Um… how can a biological male claim he feels like a woman, if he hasn’t lived in a biological woman’s body, not for a day?! Okay, forget my last remark. This is the dirtiest ideological battle ground these days. If you’re about to call me a terf or something, please, just don’t. Ignore me and I’ll go away.😅
Hi. I’m running your question by some of my BIPOC friends. I’m happy to share their response if you’re interested. I asked a Portuguese woman today, because I live in Portugal, and she did not believe that someone could write a realistic portrayal of a Portuguese woman if they are not Portuguese. I’m not saying people don’t do it, and I’m not saying that some people don’t do it in a passable way, I’m saying that I do believe voice has color, and that was your initial question.
Does voice have sexual identity as well is another question. I have written many male characters and even an entire novel from a male’s point of view, but honestly, I think it’s lacking. When I read books written by females from a male’s point of view, I can usually tell and visa versa. I have a very good male friend, who writes female erotica, and I have to fix quite a few missing (and incorrect) items, shall we say. 😅
Well, ask writer friends! I think the best writers in the world can pull this off. And asking friends to read for credibility is research. I mean, with a proper research I still believe it’s doable. If you’re a better writer than a BIPOC writer, your talent and imagination can compensate for the lack of experience. Good writing may surpass badly written authenticity. That’s what artists/writers do. We’re not chroniclers.
Or maybe don’t bother. I mean, don’t waste your time on this, because I’m just some feisty chick on the internet - totally not worth your time.
Thank you for shouting out my fellow Canadians in the Five Man Electrical Band (from Ottawa).
Kathrine, honestly, you have the BEST rants! Who was it that said something like "I don't discriminate, I hate everyone" ??? Actually, Kathrine, you are speaking to an ex-hippie, a real-live one in my mid teens to very early 20's. Then I was a "hipster" as I got a bit older...but same difference. Those descriptions sound just like the San Francisco Bay Guardian newspaper used to sound, with a mile-long list of woke requirements. I lived in SF for 31 years and was in the middle of much of this. How the heck to keep up with all the demands, exhausting. Also same on Craig's List ads for household worker needs and etc. Over the top is putting it mildly. Only solution for us rugged individualists is to just...write...your...raw...and...ragged...heart...and...soul...and...let...the...chips...fall...where...they...may. WEW
Okay, I can’t read all of these replies, but I intend to. It just might take a little time.(I’m on vacation).
It’s brutal.🫣 Just kidding. The comments are interesting, some more emotional and radical than the others. But, I suppose the readers perception might depend on which side of the political spectrum they’re on.
Everyone's voice is authentic. To limit people's rights to write and read what they want is what my father would call social fascism. One thing I try to write authentically about is what it feels like to be autistic. It's also important to me to read other authentic autistic writers. We aren't a repressed minority, we just have to write well and get our voices heard. If non autists want to write about how annoying autistic people can be, yes, give me more. Don't limit people's voices.
Yes! This! Thank you so much for your courage!🩶
I agree with you here, Kathrine. While I do utilize such chances like free submissions for POC writers, I need to swallow my pride myself to do that. It feels so humbling and patronizing. I am still willing to exploit my race just to raise the chance of getting published, but I wish I did not have to.
And that's why so many people are claiming victimization. Everyone now has autism, mental health issues, gender, and sexuality variabilities. Transracial is about the only thing you can't get away with yet by mere declaration.
I'd qualify for several I remarked-only I don't have what to submit. Small thing, really, stands between me and the world fame, lol
Dismissing the importance of #ownvoices in literature and hiding under the guise of false equality that thinly veils someone’s own insecurities and frustrations doesn’t really bring the shock value I was supposed to get from this post. It just dismisses complex cultural and social problems.
I’m sorry Kathrine, but as someone whose entire life has also been deeply rooted in Soviet and post-Soviet poverty and culture, I find this whole thing quite tone deaf. I understand it doesn’t come from a place of malice, but there are more effective ways of venting frustration.
Can you, please, answer the question: does a writer’s VOICE have colour?
Writer's voice, of course, has no color, but I don't see this point made clearly in your article. There is a difference between the straw man argument of "why cannot xyz group write about abc experience" and actual calls for the aforementioned #ownvoices writing.
To use a simple analogy that probably bridges the gap between the two of us in the simplest way - Let's say there is a call for stories written by mothers. You, as a mom, would be welcome to submit your work. It doesn't prevent me from writing characters who are moms or discussing the topic of labor complications. My voice just wouldn't be needed for that particular call.
There are many individual experiences, but they don't discard a collective experience of a marginalized group. Sometimes the calls don't necessarily have to include a specific subject matter, but, again, I find it hard to view them as "trying to take my spot" in some perceived exclusive space. I don't want you to think I'm trying to silence you or attack your opinions, I think we just have a fundamentally different view of publishing when it comes to the duality of general publishing and the #ownvoices movement.
I’m a simple soul. I like to put things simple. The bottom line is that you agree with me about the writer’s voice having no colour. Period. Or maybe a comma?
I believe in the equality when it comes to artistic endeavours and craft. Don’t you? If a childless writer has the capacity, the knowledge and the imagination to write about a mother’s experience better than me, a mother, - I would bow to their talent and craft, and not object to them being published instead of me.
I believe in equality of voices. You believe in external qualities unconnected to talent and craft as an advantage or the obstacle for people to succeed. I believe in all voices, you believe in #ownvoices. Man, I’m more liberal than you are!😂 Woke is not a good mindset, my friend. Very limiting. It puts you in a box, which I believe many don’t have the courage to get out of.
Kathrine, judging from your reactions (or lack of thereof) to comments from Leanna, Romana and me, I think we hit a soft spot. There is a clear disconnect between what I wrote and what you perceived, whether it's because I wasn't 'simple' enough or because there is some critical reading interference.
Leanna put everything into words with far more grace and kindness than I am capable of, and I don't think me trying to continue this discussion any further will lead to you actually examining the points I was making. Your crops shall remain safe this year, with the number of straw men you've built in this endeavor.
I didn’t even see Leanne’s comment until you mentioned it just now - Substack didn’t notify me. It happens. See? You presumed I didn’t answer it.
Yep, no point in dragging this on. We speak different languages. As for Romana and Leanne, indoctrination is heavy there. I don’t see how a discussion is possible, if the person uses terms like “white cis woman” with a straight face.
You say you don't want to spread hate but that's exactly what you're doing. And why? Because some journal, magazine or publishing house rejected you? Have you ever considered that they might have actual reasons to do so and not your skin?
Besides, this sounds as if it was written by very privileged straight white cis woman and I'm glad that partially you already understand this. So, perhaps, now would be the time to delve deeper into why you sound like this. Don't just victimize yourself, be critical and assess yourself the way you assess these publishers, writers, editors, etc.
Briefly, don't try to put blame on others. Look at yourself and your writing.
Or don't, whatever. But then don't expect the world to care about you or your writing, when *you* only think about *yourself*.
I wouldn’t even dare to apply my work to a place with these guidelines. I’m not a liar. But can you, please, answer my question - does a writer’s VOICE have colour? Is my writer’s voice different from the voice of a person of different colour, becausr of the colour?
I don’t think you will answer me. You’ve probably blocked me already.
Judging by your choice of words you live in a bubble, Romana. I hope one day, you’ll open your eyes.
Yes, I live in a bubble. It's called real world.
But anyway, this has nothing to do with color. These guidelines are there because of the access such people have to different options. You obviously don't see this because you already have your white privilege and nothing was taken away from you that could be even called "human rights". Also the right to have a voice, specifically.
So... no, the voice technically doesn't have a color. But your skin color, gender, sexuality, etc. affect the way people view and assess your writing. If you were POC or queer, people would treat you and your writing differently. Metaphorically then, the voice has "color".
If this doesn't answer your ignorant and hateful question, then I don't know what will.
You have a very shallow and arrogant way, I dare say, stereopypicall way of viewing people. What privilege do I have?! What do you know about me? You judge me by my skin colour. Tell me how is that not superficial? How is that not racist? I might have suffered hunger and violence in my childhood, while a rich asian kid may have had a lovely childhood. Who is the priviledged one here?
Hello Kathrine love, I am weighing in. Romana did pretty well. I recommend looking into privileges as a white cis het woman (I am assuming you’re also that) and I’m giving you a book to read by a white woman about her growing awareness of that “privilege”. It’s called “Waking Up White” by Debby Irving. It’s a memoir and it’s a really good read.
Next I want you to consider that the great monolith of publishing is run by (mostly) white men who have that white male viewpoint … (the exception is the many female editors in the romance industry) and if there’s any indication you’re not going to fit that (whether because your name doesn’t sound white or the topic/themes of your work), you are likely to be passed over for someone who “fits”. Why do you think Rowling used initials? (Same problem as the Brontes). So many SFF writers had to pretend to be male in order to write in this field. That has changed in recent decades.
These specialized publications allow those voices to be heard, to be less alone in their shared experiences and stories. For the same reason you gather up romance stories, they gather up stories to support each other and bring visibility to their beautiful work. That is not a bad thing.
So, you might call me a racist and I am. I’ve got generations of taught racism in me (stuff that feels “normal”) that I’m doing my best to deny and sometimes I slip up. This post is one of your slip ups, Kathrine. You should apply to that Luna publication as that’s for women writers only. There are plenty of publications you can submit to.
A quick question - what makes you think I’m a woman? Or white? The picture on my profile? Everything I said about myself could be a hoax to hide my identity.
Oh, and this is not a slip up. These are my thoughts and observations. By the way, I have posted something similar on Notes some months ago. I believe after a short discussion you agreed that the quality of the writer’s work should be the only merit. Did you pretend to agree with me back then? I’m sad to see you’ve been so heavily indoctrinated by a certain ideology. I hope one day you’ll be truly awaken and not woke.
Don’t answer if you don’t want to. I know you hate me already. (No need to pretend).
By the way Thorny Thursday isn’t a closed group. It’s opened to everybody, even folks who don’t write romance. I try to keep it neutral from any ideologies. From my own opinion and beliefs as well. The only merit is if it doesn’t violate Substack rules. But I’ll understand if you want off the list, if you can’t separate the TT from my persona.🤷♀️
Did you just admit you aren’t who you say you are?
As for being indoctrinated, that response to your earlier Note was me taking the question at face value. It’d be great if writers could be seen in their own writerly merit but so many are not and I remember writing about that then. How about instead of telling me not to be woke you give me some resources, like I gave you so you could read and make up your own mind? Oh, and I don’t hate you. You haven’t crossed that line.
As for the TT list, my serial finishes some time in July and then I’m on hiatus until book 2 is ready so I will be a bit quiet around all the lists after that.
I expected nothing more from someone like you. Thank you for proving my point. Have a nice day.
D ivide
E nrage
I ncite
Of course the whole business is a powder-white condescension to those whom our elites consider lesser people.
🙄
I worked in factories from 1980 to 2011. I met and worked and lived and worshipped beside maybe a dozen persons of color with genuine street cred, escapees from hood life. Every one, every single one of them found Affirmative Action to be a horribly patronizing racist put down aimed at keeping black people in their place and at giving substance to prejudicial white sneers. The profiteers pushing racial preferences can take it up with the real people from the ugly side; not my place to argue on their behalf. I’m just relating my experience.
My attitude toward gay people did a 180 degree turnaround between high school and retirement. Why? Because some brave souls came out and made it normal. Remember Act Up? They were gays who shouted in the streets and wore thongs into churches they didn’t like, and so on. They set the cause of gay rights back 20 years. What changed my mind was seeing gays as normal people living normal lives.
Hope that’s clear.
To all genders, creeds, orientations, and heritages: Brotherhood is your one and only hope. Buying into the division game is an act of fellatio performed on your predators. The brotherhood of all is your only hope. It doesn’t matter how stupid whitey is: grow tfu and out-human the sons a beeches.
Kathrine, Of Course one’s experience colors one’s writing! Yes, your color has a voice! Be authentic, write about what you know. What on earth do they even teach in the damn schools these days?